062 Climbing Into Fitness With Fenella Hemus

Join me and Fenella as we discuss the transformative nature of climbing, and how it can help develop a greater sense of self-awareness, resilience, and mindfulness. The sense of calmness and focus you can experience while climbing, as well as the sense of Zen and exhilaration it brings.

About Fenella Hemus:

I started climbing when I was 42 and got hooked. About 5 years ago, my friend who hated gyms etc came with me and we now boulder and workout (at the climbing gym) every week. I'm 58 and she's 54. As well as fitness and strength, climbing / bouldering is brilliant for flow states and mental health. 

Fenella Hemus has been in the business of people transformation for over 25 years, supporting people of all ages and walks of life to grow and thrive. Her varied background spans running an adventure playground, training development and delivery, health coaching and travelling. This has given her wide ranging skills and life experiences to draw on. She now runs Internationally Certified Neuro Linguistic Programming, Time Line therapy and hypnotherapy training for coaches and business leaders who are dedicated to creating positive change in the world. Fenella is passionate about people being able to unlock their full potential and harness a creative and playful mindset. With this and the behaviour change tools of NLP, professionals go on to achieve profound and long lasting results for themselves and anyone Through 1:1 breakthrough and performance coaching, Fenella enables ambitious, overwhelmed professionals to overcome the barriers that stop them achieving greater success on their own terms, so they become limitless in their thinking and unstoppable in their mission. Fenella wholeheartedly believes everyone is magnificent and has the ability to achieve the exceptional in life. 

www.fenellahemus.com
https://www.facebook.com/FenellaHemusNLP/ https://www.instagram.com/fenella_hemus_nlp_training/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/fenella-hemus/

About Sarah Bolitho:

Sarah Bolitho helps fitness and health professionals develop their careers and grow their businesses by providing specialist training in teaching, assessing, and internal quality assurance, together with qualifications in exercise referral and disability.   

With over 30 years in the health-related fitness and physical activity fields, Sarah has a wealth of experience and knowledge.  She has worked in most roles in the industry from group exercise to personal training but specialised in working with specialist populations.  For over 25 years Sarah has trained fitness and health professionals to work with clients with long-term conditions, mental health issues, disabilities, older adults and pre/post-natal women.  

She has a post-graduate diploma in exercise and health behaviour and extensive training in supporting behaviour change.

For more about the training and support Sarah offers, visit www.sarahbolitho.com or contact her at admin@sarahbolitho.com.

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Transcript

Sarah (00:01.486)

Hello and welcome to this episode of Creating Active Lives with me, Sarah Bolitho and my guest, Fenella Hemus. Fenella is going to be talking about climbing, which is something that I fully intend to give a go at some point, but I know it's something that tends to be associated with children initially, but also with very, very outdoorsy people who go off and climb everywhere. It's not necessarily something we associate with getting fitter. So it's going to be really interesting talking about this.

Fenella will tell us how she got into climbing, but she's in the business of transformation. So supporting people to grow and thrive and develop. And I know that's something very close to my heart because I think quite often we focus a lot on professional development and we forget about our personal development. So it's kind of encompassing all of that, which is so good. And she's she's done all sorts of things like running an adventure playground, training, development, delivery, health coaching, but also traveling and that's given her a lot of life experience, life skills and everything to draw on, which I think is really important these days is to pull all that information, that experience, that knowledge into supporting others. She now runs internationally certified neuro -linguistic programming, although some of you will be familiar with that, others might not, but also things like time -line therapy and hypnotherapy training as well. So we can talk about that a little bit more, but for now introduce yourself briefly and then we'll talk about how you got into climbing.

Fenella Hemus (01:30.954)

So yeah, hi, my name is Fenella.

Perhaps you would say it would be useful to know my age because I am 58 years old and how I got into climbing was I happened to be at one of my best friend's houses and she had had a new tenant, a new tenant move in and he talked about going to the climbing wall and I was thinking, God, I really like to do that because when I was little, I used to climb. I'd always be up a tree or on some rocks, freaking my mum out because she hates heights. And so I went to the climbing wall with him at the age of I think was 42 at the time and I absolutely loved it and basically from that moment I was on a top rope so I was holding on for dear life as well but the adrenaline and the great feeling afterwards I had in my body I just thought right okay I'm gonna I'm gonna keep going and so after that what happened was I signed up for a course so I learned to top rope which is where the rope is always above you and then after that and of course I had to learn to belay to keep and all safety stuff and after that then I went and signed up for a lead a lead climbing course which is where you are actually taking the rope up with you it's a it's a slightly different head game that one.

Sarah (02:49.774)

Yes, I bet. I mean, I know in the introduction you sort of said you started climbing when you were 42 and you got hooked. What was it about climbing that hooked you then? Because it's always, it's not necessarily what you do with the sport and things like that. It's kind of what's that hook for you?

Fenella Hemus (03:06.538)

For me it was...I say climbing is really Zen. It's one of the things that has you totally focused. So before that, I was really into yoga. I've been really into yoga a lot of my life. And this is a little side, it's important. I used to be really physically wanting to do things that made me sweat. Then I got into yoga. Yoga created that sense of calm space in my head. And that's exactly the same sort of thing, crazily, that happens when you're climbing because you are very focused on the moment in time, what you're doing. And also, that sense of your body in space and that moment of weightlessness when you make a move that seems really improbable and you make it and then you get the adrenaline. So it's a real, you get such an amazing feeling inside yourself and it's how your body can move and what you can make your body do actually on the wall. And I think, you know, very early on, even when I started and I was clinging on for dear life, it was just that when I managed to do, you know, when I managed to do something and it worked, there was that sense of real exhilaration. So I'd say climbing is really zen. It really is zen.

Sarah (04:28.234)

Yeah. And it's, I mean, you have to concentrate, don't you? You have to concentrate. You can't kind of go like be wandering off and go, no, look, I like the look of their chalk bag. And that's an interesting colour. You've got to be focused on it because it is so, I mean, I know obviously you're probably not free climbing, but you still need to know where you're putting your hands, where you're putting your feet. And somebody who I'm very, very interested in, in how we need to get back more in touch with nature. And of course climbing whether it's outside, inside or whatever, you are literally in touch, aren't you? Because it's not just feet, but it's hands. It's your whole body is getting close to rock. And even if it's artificial rock, it still counts. But how's climbing benefited your health and wellbeing? You mentioned about it being very zen for a lot of people. That calmness is sometimes hard to find because we don't practice it enough to be good at it.

So what else has it done for your health and wellbeing?

Fenella Hemus (05:27.21)

Well physical fitness, my core strength because climbing just develops your core strength because women, when you start to climb, I mean, I was strong already when I started to climb. But what that meant was that I had the advantage of being able to use my arms. The reality is, is women make amazing climbers. And that's because they don't have the upper body strength, because climbing is all about from your, it comes from your feet, it's in your legs. So what it does is it's all about that centre of, having that centre of gravity, which is in your stomach pelvic area and because you're working your arm back muscles essentially what you're doing is you're building the whole of that torso strength your intrinsic full core strength not just you know what people sometimes think is the stomach muscles you're building your deep deep stabilizing muscles at the same time because you're looking for balance and that I think I credit climbing with, and yoga as well, I credit climbing with the fact that I can trip over things and I can right myself very easily because I have a really, really good balance.

Sarah (06:47.95)

But I suppose reactions as well. Because if you go for a holder or your foot slips, you need to be able to fix it. It's interesting you're saying that because, you know, I suppose the assumption is because we're climbing, you know, hands, that it's upper body strength. But what you're saying is it's core strength and leg strength that's really massive. And I'm really glad you said about the core because I think so many people think a flat stomach is a strong core and of course it isn't it's just that outer layer of muscles that might be flat whereas the strong core there are so many i mean i'm not going to go into the musculature today but there are so many muscles inside really close to the spine and we tend to focus on the ones that we can see so but i imagine with climbing that that strong core is just is something that you kind of have to develop because it's all about positioning and balance and reaction.

Fenella Hemus (07:45.834)

Yeah, it develops as part of just doing climbing because it's such a full body sport. And it's not an intensive, it's intensive in terms of connecting the mind to the body and it requires thought. What you do is after you've been climbing, you have that beauty, it's a real sense of just feeling good. It's a real sense of satisfaction, if you like, that you've challenged your body. And I think what I'm looking for at my age, really, as well, is that that sense of surety in my body, you know, that sense of confidence within my body. I know my body is going to take me wherever I want it to take me because it takes me up. It takes me up rocks, which I suppose is quite an unusual place, a place to go. But it is it's that being able to move that body in synchronicity if you like as well. I call it for for good climbers it's like watching ballet on the rock. It's absolutely for me I can watch it. It's beautiful.

Sarah (08:45.358)

Yes I hike a lot in Colorado, as most people know, and there's a couple of canyons where you can see climbers going up, you know, scary things. But there must be as well, you know, we'll talk about some of the physical benefits in a moment, but there must be a sense with climbing because you can look back at where you've been, I climbed that, I came back down. So there's a very visual, like you come away from the gym, you don't look back at all the machines and go, wow, I used the chest press today. Whereas with climbing, there must be a real mental boost to say, I climbed up there and I came back down again. So that must be a big part of it as well.

Fenella Hemus (09:28.874)

Yes well, also, you know, we when we're climbing outside, we are out in the countryside and I always think the place I used to climb all every I'd go every week more than once a week, place called Cheddar. Now, on a quiet day when the cars and everything is not going up the up the road, all you hear is you're you're you're up on the high up on the rock and and you hear birds singing and that's all that's in your in your head and you then hear the clinking of people's gear and you know, and I am talking sport climbing here. I tried climbing because I started later. I don't spend as much time doing that. I know how to do it. I've been away doing it. When you're outside, it's that sense of being close. You are close to nature. You know, the other crazy thing is, you know, I think nothing nicer than you're climbing. You get a bit dirty. You're sitting on the ground in amongst the plants. It's kind of really for me, it's really visceral and really connected. As you said before, it's like, yeah, I'm literally physically connected to the rock. I'm also connected to nature while I'm out there, even though I might be facing a piece of rock most of the time when I'm climbing up it. I've got often a good view to look around and just that peaceful, peaceful being out there and yeah, sense of being, it's a sense of contentment really. It really is. Coming back after a day's climbing you just got a really great sense of contentment.

Sarah (10:47.15)

It's that physical connection, isn't it? Like you said, it's that visceral connection almost with nature. If you think about it, as kids, you know, we climbed trees. Well, my day we did, you know, we were always up and down trees. But we didn't just climb a tree and come back down again. You climbed a tree and you stayed up there for a while. You stayed up in the branches doing things and hanging on and trying different things. It was that real solid connection with nature and I think, like you say, getting dirty, getting hot, getting sweaty is part of it because it really brings us back to the collection of atoms, if you like, that we are and out there. But with climbing, you've also got that mental element of where am I going to put my hand, where am I going to put my feet, what's my next move, which, it's not, you don't, I'm guessing, you don't just sit there for a while and go, right, where am I going to put my hands? You've got to make split second decisions.

Fenella Hemus (11:57.546)

Yes. And it's about finding the easiest way to make a move and that, you know, the least effort that you can make. And that's all part of the learning process. And then you start wiring in those moves. You know, you just uncut. They get what we call the end grams. You learn the types of moves and you can look at a piece of rock and you go, OK, well, I need to put my hand, I put my hand there. My foot's got to go into this place. And you learn to become much more over time adept. And so you're developing that skill as well which is, yeah I can't explain, I can't, I just can't, I can't explain how it is to be able to develop that skill of moving, of moving your body and knowing where that this one will go, this one that probably won't go, well if I put my hand there then where else am I going to have to actually move my body and sometimes you know you put and I'm sitting here moving my, moving myself into the position, it's like you know you literally have to go underneath something to make it work and then you get up and it's like a little bit of a dance and when you make that move and it works you go, that was amazing. 

Sarah (13:07.246)

We've talked about strength, you know, it is good, let's be honest, it is good for your strength, your muscles and things like that. And we talked a little bit about coordination and reaction and balance and core strength as well. And I imagine all of those just get better and better and better because you are climbing regularly. Cardiovascular wise, I mean, there must be elements of it that are good for the heart and lungs where you are breathing a little bit faster and not just from adrenaline, but there may be times where it is cardiovascular rather than just being all about the strength.

Fenella Hemus (13:41.386)

Well yes, I suppose what you're doing is if you've got to move quickly, then you are, if you're on a longer route, then you're using stamina so you may get to the top and you are out of breath. It's not like a, for example, if I'm doing bouldering, and it's a short and it's a bit more powerful, I'll come down and I'll be out of breath. Because at some point I will probably have been holding my breath because I'm holding my body in tension. So it's not cardiovascular in the same way as like anyway, the same way as running or cycling is, yet it will raise your heart rate. I mean, I can sometimes you know, you sit there and maybe it is a little bit of adrenaline as well. And you'll come down and your heart is pounding because you've exerted that effort to get up the roll. So yeah It's better for you to run that way.

Sarah (14:33.486)

You mentioned bouldering. I kind of think I know the answer, but from hiking a lot in the States and seeing people. But what's the difference then between climbing and bouldering? Because I'm hearing more about bouldering these days.

Fenella Hemus (14:52.746)

Bouldering is much more popular because it doesn't cost as much money and you don't need all the gear. So to go outside and boulder all you need is a pair of shoes, a chalk bag and a crash mat.

So you don't need the ropes, you don't need the quick drawers, you don't need any of that gubbins. And so it's in that way much easier. And also you're not climbing high. You basically put a crash mat underneath the boulder, massive boulder, it's like I'm about to go to Fontainebleau for two weeks. And then you essentially do a short, powerful problem. And it's all about moves really, if you like. Again, it's about a short number of moves to get up a boulder and just finding a variety of ways to do that and depending on you know some can be really difficult some can be much easier to get over a boulder and there's loads of bouldering walls so it's a very very popular sport nowadays and that's essentially the difference it's like low walls crash mats powerful more power whereas climbing is more about stamina and being able to keep going it's like slightly easier moves it's longer longer routes and then that's the difference you're going up and then you're coming down with a boulder often you're going over the top i mean in the climbing walls you go up and you come down but on a real bouldering outside is you generally you get to the top and then you'll climb over the top and find your way down an easier way down the back.

Sarah (16:03.406)

Yeah, because I've seen I've seen people heading off to go bouldering and of course they carry their crash mats. I mean, that's going to be cardiovascular, hasn't it? They're carrying these massive great crash mats, quite a distance in some cases. I mean, and people will say, you know, there's a really good boulder there and it's like, let's all wander off there. But it sounds it just I mean, it just sounds it sounds like there's I mean, I know climbing can be kind of a group activity, but also a solo activity. But it sounds like there's a community.

Fenella Hemus (16:43.378)

We do. There is a real community and you know you go on a climbing holiday and all you talk about is climbing and all you do is climbing. You eat then you sleep then you climb again. So yeah it's a really good way of also making friends because climbing partners you know people who want climbing partners you put up a note you go out and you just make the connections because you're climbing. You may have very different lives, very different outlooks but climbing is the thing that connects you and I love it as well because it's a very supportive sport so you're always encouraging people you know you might be making suggestions but if someone's going up a route you're you know doing a bouldering problem you know you encourage each other to to be able to you know give that extra push so that somebody is going to keep going you know get across that like that limit that they might have set in their mind where they're slightly nervous or whatever i'm not going to do that like go on yeah go on you're going to you know you can do it you can do it.

Sarah (17:33.262)

Right.

Fenella Hemus (17:56.124)

And that's what I also really really love. It's really quite, it's not competitive really, it's not at some levels yes it is competitive, it's not competitive as well, it's really supportive.

Sarah (18:11.31)

Supportively competitive I think is a good way of putting it in that you what you even if you want to win you still want everyone else to do well as well you mentioned Before we started talking, but you mentioned you had a friend who was kind of no don't like the gym Not going to do any of that and you got her involved. So what? Was that just because she'd seen how much you were enjoying it or?

Fenella Hemus (18:18.09)

Yeah. Maybe over time, yes, she just got curious about it and thought, well, yes, hated, wasn't gonna, wouldn't go to the gym, wasn't, couldn't think of anything more boring. And then, yeah, came with me to the bouldering wall. Doesn't like heights, need to say that. And also had a, wouldn't trust her left hand, her left arm, because she said, you know, her, I think part of her arm would give way, and maybe that was a bit of a head thing as well. And so, you know, over time, she's, yeah, she just got really, into it. We go every week now and now she is into the gym as well because we've got a gym at the climbing wall but that's partly to be able to climb better.

And I have to say is she's still got that slight nervousness about height and if she didn't she would be burning me off like she's got amazing movement. She's been doing it for about five years on and off because we had you know those few years where we couldn't go out and go to those sorts of places. And yes it's the one thing that she has just committed to do. Every week I call her the cashmere climber because she wears a cashmere cardigan.

Sarah (19:47.502)

Yay! We love that! But it's interesting isn't it because I think so many people think I've got to go to the gym to get fit but actually you go to the gym to get fit for something so you might say right I need to improve this strength for climbing I'll go to the gym to do that rather than I think people see the gym as the starting off point whereas actually it's almost a progression or it's something you do

because it will help you in what else you want to do. And I think that's, you know, there are people out there who love going to the gym, but for me it's like, I need to improve this. I think, talk about most areas, but bones, it's gotta be good for your bones as well because the gripping and movement and the pull on the muscles and everything's gotta be good for bones, which is always something as women we need to think about because we are more likely to develop bone issues through osteoporosis than men, but it must be really helpful for that.

Fenella Hemus (20:39.274)

I imagine so yes because you're putting pressure on as you're moving you're putting pressure on your bones as you're climbing so you know and the connective tissue as well so it really is supportive for joints and it's not it's not impact on a sheath ball but it's not it's not really impact either so i'd say i mean i i just think it's one of those sports and i do believe you can start it at any time in your life yes you may start off more slowly and you can climb on anything you know on any angle it's just about that moving the whole body and developing that coordination in a way that's not repetitive impact.

Sarah (21:32.622)

Yeah, it's interesting because it is a whole-body sport and I think, you know, our bodies are designed to work as a unit rather than as upper body, lower body, everything, so it's really good from that. So somebody listening in then who thinks, do you know what, I fancy giving it a go. Where would they start?

Fenella Hemus (21:48.298)

I'd say go and find your local climbing wall or your local bouldering wall. You can always hire shoes there. You can always hire all the equipment and go and check it out. And they always have beginner sessions and sign up to a few of those and find out what it's like. Just have a go.

Sarah (22:09.71)

I think a lot of people will be thinking, I don't know if there's anywhere I can go, but I used to work at somewhere that had a climbing room. I think there are more climbing facilities than people realise. It's just sort of looking there. Is there an organisation people could go to for advice or?

Fenella Hemus (22:26.922)

crikey, I can't remember. Go and Google climbing near to me or go bouldering ball because like you say there are more and more and more. I live in Bristol and when I started there was one climbing wall. That was 15, 16 years ago and there'd been one for a very long time. This is an example of how much climbing has grown in popularity. There are now four, five, five. So there's three bouldering walls and two climbing walls here in Bristol. So that's how popular it is.

Sarah (22:47.982)

Wow, so there's bound to be something nearby that you can go and have a go. And do you think it's ever too late? Do you think you're ever too old to start? Obviously as long as you've got a reasonable amount of strength and movement ability.

Fenella Hemus (23:23.37)

Yeah. And we, you know, there are people who are disabled who climb, people who climb with one arm, people who climb, you know, can climb with one leg. Maybe they did climb before. Yes, it's, it's again around the level at which you, at which you want to, you want to do it. And I think it's, it's for the pure fun. You know, you start somewhere. It took me a fair while to get, get good at it. It's just keep repeating, keep repeating and you'll get better. And yeah, never too late. I don't, I don't believe it too late. I mean, you know, one example, and then, it's different because these guys have been climbing forever. I go to the climbing wall every so often and on a Tuesday I think it is, there is probably, well there's hardly anyone who's under the age of 55 there. I mean there are guys there who are, they have been climbing for most of their, for a lot of their life, they are like over 70 years old and that's the beauty of it is it keeps you moving, it keeps you fit. You know you wouldn't guess that they were 75 years old or whatever and they're still up there on the ropes.

Sarah (24:06.99)

Really? Wow.

Yeah, it's like I always say though, when you find an activity that you love, that you get so much from, it's hard not to do it. You look forward to it. I imagine there are probably times, circumstances, whenever if you can't get out on a climb, you must kind of notice the impact and be itching to get back out there.

Fenella Hemus (24:49.802)

Definitely, and that's a real big thing for a lot of climbers. They take up climbing because of that sense of freedom and being out. And it's kind of like, I suppose, like runners as well. If they can't do it, then it does affect their, it affects your mental health. And you're kind of like, you know, I need to get out there. I need to get out on the rock again. Because it is, yeah, I can't ever see, it's the one thing I can't ever see myself not doing now. I was, you know, to have found climbing, I wish I'd found it when I was younger. So I found climbing at the age I did. I'm so, so thankful because it is the one thing that I above everything else I just it makes me feel in a it makes me feel in a way that I cannot that nothing else that nothing else does.

Sarah (25:37.07)

Yeah, I mean we said there's no real, there's no upper age at which you start. You can start at any point provided you've got a reasonable amount. But if you, even whatever age you are, if you weren't particularly fit or strong, could you still start even at a low level and build up from there?

Fenella Hemus (25:52.714)

Yeah, I mean I go to the bouldering wall and you see all sorts of people. All people, all shapes, all sizes, all ages, you see them there. That's the thing is it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. So, you know, maybe, yeah, try, I say always have a go, give it a few goes. And yeah just give it a few goes. Just give it a go. It's never too late. What have you got to lose.

Sarah (26:04.398)

Yeah. Just get in there. Yeah. 

So if you had the chance to go anywhere in the world to boulder or climb, where would it be?

Fenella Hemus (26:33.514)

I'd like to go to, I don't know exact place, I'd probably like to go to Colombia, back to Colombia because there are some places that are really out of the way that don't get climbed and Colombia happens to be a country that's very close to my heart so yeah some more of the the out of the way places which I you know I just have to go and have a look and look for them. I kind of like that about the climbers they're always off out looking for somebody the really good ones they're out somewhere else in the world looking for new places to go climbing so it's they are quite adventurous as well.

Sarah (26:42.574)

I suppose it's where you get the benefit of being in spectacular natural environments as well, which is self -explanatory. I mean, absolutely go and learn in a climbing wall in a city somewhere and everything, but get out into nature and give it a go with safety obviously.

Fenella Hemus (27:27.434)

Once you're climbing, then if you're going to climb with ropes, learn all the safety stuff, learn how to lead, probably be a good idea. Or at least have some, yeah, learn, really learn your belaying and then go out onto rock and you can go, you know, there's loads of places around England where you can go and anything from really easy grades you can go and climb some really easy graded stuff down near on the beach in loads of places. They have boulders that you can be climbing on too. So yeah, we're really fortunate we've got a lot of places in this country we can go primarily not so much in the south or east but make loads more in the west country and up north as well and Wales. So loads of places to go climbing outside.

Sarah (28:04.205)

Brilliant. So what would be your advice to anyone who's sitting here listening thinking, not sure.

Fenella Hemus (28:27.402)

I would say is go Google your nearest climbing or bouldering wall and then phone up and find out their beginner sessions because they would be really well supported and go and just join one or find a friend who might be doing it and go along with them.

Sarah (28:37.998)

I might just do that because as I say, I spend a lot of time in Colorado and they have a lot of climbing opportunities there. So I think I'm going to do that as well. So just just before we go, tell us a little bit about your actual work that you do with people, because obviously, I mean, I'm guessing you don't coach people when they're climbing, but equally you do help people transform.

Fenella Hemus (29:07.85)

I teach people neuro -linguistic programming NLP, which is the art and science of understanding how your mind works to make it work for you. So I train practitioners, I train coaches and hypotherapists or anyone who's really interested in that, like, knowing how to be able to coach themselves, if you like. But also I work with people to help them get over blocks, maybe stuff that's happened in their past that they really need to get rid of permanently. And also so that they can  go ahead people who are like at crossroads who are looking to change direction in their life and just it's about finding those resources that they may not they may forgotten that they have and neuro linguistic programming NLP is really very simple practical ways it's really powerful it's really permanent and fast and I love it because it is around I don't we don't need to talk about story or what happens to people it's just about how are they doing what they do to get those results. It's just all about their strategies and that's kind of why it connects in with climbing in that way. It's like what strategy do I have to use my head to climb the route? I need to have that mindset if you like. So it is mindset but it's also mind and body which is why it really connects into you know everything that I do because I am a really physical being in my body person. 

Sarah (30:12.174)

Yeah. It's in. Because I was thinking that, you know, climbing isn't about, my goodness, what happened seven moves ago that I got here? It's about, OK, what's my next move? How do I get over this? And it's and I think sometimes we spend a lot of time thinking about what happened then instead of what can I do now? And that sounds, you know, the link with climbing is I can see why climbing appeals to you so much, actually, because it's that the literally the physical kind of translation if you like of what you do mentally. Yeah.

Fenella Hemus (31:04.49)

Yeah, yeah, it's the challenge is how do I move forward from here to get where I want to get? Simple. And that's NLP.

Sarah (31:11.082)

Yeah. And more of us need that. But we need to be a bit bolder about that. Bolder. We do need to be a little bit bolder about it, don't we? Because you're never going to get anywhere in climbing or anywhere if you just sit there and think and look at what could I do next? It's like, no, no, what's my next move? And then the next one. And for me, I'm all about behavior change and more about achieving more than you want in life and things like that.

Fenella Hemus (31:32.682)

Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah (31:39.022)

And I think sometimes again, we will look at a boulder or a wall and think, I'll never get up that. But actually, even if you only get three holds up, you're further than you were. And then next time you're like before and then five. But it's, you've got to start, you've got to physically start to make those changes, haven't you? You've got to physically start to make those moves and then you'll end up getting further.

Fenella Hemus (32:05.61)

Absolutely, that's it. I think you've said it in a nutshell, really. Yeah, totally.

Sarah (32:07.022)

So where can people find you if they want to find out more?

Fenella Hemus (32:13.706)

My website is www .fenellahemus .com and everything else anywhere else you can find me on LinkedIn, you can find me on Facebook and you can find me on Instagram so that would all be Fenella Hemus NLP. I'm under my name everywhere and I've got a very unusual name so type that one in then you'll come across me there's only one there's only one Fenella Hemus.

Sarah (32:34.03)

Yes, actually there's two of me, but the other one is very young and very blonde and I think she's in New Zealand. So I'm quite easy to find as well. It's one of the one of the advantages of having an unusual name, isn't it? Not always. Yeah, but Fenella, thank you so much for coming to talk to me. I mean, you've inspired me to give it a go because I know my children used to climb and my grandchildren climb and it's something I've always looked at and thought, maybe I'm a bit old. Maybe it's not the right time. But actually, it sounds like for me, it sounds like that kind of exactly what I want to do in my spare time is just get away from everything and really get that kind of narrow focus on something which frees up the rest of my brain to do what it needs to do. So thank you so much for coming to talk to me. I'll put all your contact details in the information but if anybody does want to contact Fenella as she said if you put your name in they'll find you or they can contact me and tell you. But any last message then for anyone listening to do with climbing?

Fenella Hemus (33:36.138)

Just do it just take that first step and look forward rather than backwards be in the moment actually for me is live life be in the moment.

Sarah (33:50.574)

And even if your first step is just searching for climbing in your area, even if that's all you do today or tomorrow or the day after, that's one step. Most places I imagine would let you go and have a look. So anyone listening in that decides to give it a go? Let us know how you get on. Thank you so much for coming on today. It's been really, really interesting. You've been listening to me, Sarah and my guest, Fenella Himas, talking about climbing. Thank you.