055 Are you getting enough rest? with Caroline Bramwell

To mark one year of the podcast I am delighted to be talking to Caroline Bramwell. Caroline was a guest on one of the early episodes of the podcast and she is back today to talk about the importance of rest.

Hear us discuss:

• why is rest so important
• what kind of rest are we thinking about
• how rest supports our subconscious mind
• how to prioritise rest in your day

Do you find it easy to rest? How can you bring more rest into your day?

About Caroline:
Voted one of the UK’s Top Ten Female Entrepreneurs by Cosmopolitan Magazine, for the work she does as a PR & Marketing advisor and mentor to businesses large and small, and voted Inspirational Woman of the Year in the Venus Awards for the South West, Caroline is a powerhouse when it comes to business with over 35 years’ experience.

Yet, she still finds time to become an author, public speaker and triathlete. During lockdown she also qualified as a Triathlon coach and embraces the ethos of training principles into how businesses are driven and grow. 

You might think ‘how does she fit everything in’. Caroline is the epitome of determination and goal achiever. You will also find Caroline featured in ‘Fearless: Adventures with Extraordinary Women’ the new book by former BBC Breakfast Presenter, Louise Minchin, who approached Caroline to have an adventure with her.

www.ironostomy.co.uk

www.carolinebramwell.co.uk

About Sarah Bolitho:
Sarah Bolitho helps fitness and health professionals develop their careers and grow their businesses by providing specialist training in teaching, assessing, and internal quality assurance, together with qualifications in exercise referral and disability.   

With over 30 years in the health-related fitness and physical activity fields, Sarah has a wealth of experience and knowledge.  She has worked in most roles in the industry from group exercise to personal training but specialised in working with specialist populations.  For over 25 years Sarah has trained fitness and health professionals to work with clients with long-term conditions, mental health issues, disabilities, older adults and pre/post-natal women.  She has a post-graduate diploma in exercise and health behaviour and extensive training in supporting behaviour change.  She has worked with awarding organisations to develop qualifications and training and with accreditation bodies to endorse high-quality non-regulated training. 

For more about the training and support Sarah offers, visit www.sarahbolitho.com or contact her at admin@sarahbolitho.com.

Follow her on social media
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fabnewlous_active_lives
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/fitnesscareer mentor
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahbolitho

Transcript

Sarah (00:01.39)

Hello and welcome to this episode of Creating Active Lives. And this is a really special episode for two reasons. One, this week we're marking a whole year of Creating Active Lives and over 50 episodes, which I'm just so pleased about. But I'm also welcoming back one of my first guests, Caroline Branwell. She featured in episode four, which was released this time last year. And the title was from inactivity to Iron Man via stoma. So if you want to go back and check that one out, please do. Caroline's one of the UK's top 10 female entrepreneurs voted by Cosmopolitan magazine. And she does a lot of work as a PR and marketing advisor and mentors small and large businesses. She's been voted inspirational woman of the year in the Venus Awards for the Southwest. And she's an absolute powerhouse when it comes to business. Over 35 years experience, which, you know, in anybody's book is a fairly hefty weight of experience to have behind you, isn't it?

On top of all of that and a really busy business life and all the other stuff she does, she's an author, she's a public speaker and a triathlete. And during lockdown she actually qualified as a triathlon coach and kind of combines or embraces the ethos of training principles into how businesses are driven and grow. And I think that's going to be a really interesting thing maybe to touch on is because I think when you're training for a physical event, there's a lot that you can transfer over into business isn't there?

But you're probably listening to this and thinking, how does she fit everything in? And Caroline really is the epitome of determination and goal achieving. She's somebody who needs goals. Anyone who knows me will know that I often say, you know, some people don't want or need goals, but Caroline is definitely someone that needs those goals to work towards. She's also been featured in Fearless Adventures with Extraordinary Women, which is the book by the BBC breakfast presenter Louise Minchin and who approached Caroline to have an adventure with her, which is really exciting. And I'll be honest, it sounds exhausting, doesn't it? But here's one of her big secrets. The one thing that Caroline prioritises is rest, and that's what we're talking about today. So Caroline, tell us a little bit more about you, and then we'll get on to talking about what is rest, first of all.

Caroline Bramwell (02:19.125)

Hi, hello, thank you. It's brilliant to be back, absolutely brilliant. Yeah, my life is busy. I think everyone, whenever anybody hears what I do, they go, how do you fit it all in? I think that's the cliche. I think that'll be my epitaph, how did you fit it all in? But yeah, during the day, I am typically a PR and marketing consultant, business advisor. Some of that is Zoom, some of it is me actually working on content for clients, getting them publicity. But then it's also big strategy days and strategy weekends, which do, as you might imagine, incorporate a lot of rest.

Sarah (02:58.966)

Yay. Yep, so what is, when we talk about rest, everybody says, oh, I need a rest, or I'm gonna go have a rest, but what do we actually mean when we say rest?

Caroline Bramwell (03:10.805)

I think when people say that they probably just want to step away or just switch off from what they're doing. I mean yes some people it's physically a physical rest means you're exhausted, your body's feeling it, you're aching, your back aches, your arm aches, so you want to go and just sit down and switch off in that respect. So there's various levels of rest, there is that physical rest but another part of that is the mental rest, but that's actually the bit that is so valuable to us. Our body will recover. If we just sit down, we sleep every night, next morning, most people get up feeling more refreshed if they've slept enough. Our body physically needs rest. But in our lives now, when you look at people working, people are working longer hours, they feel they've got to get more done, they've got to be productive, which means put more hours in. But actually that's going against things for them because the longer you work, if you imagine if you're working late into the night, your eyes are tired, your brain's not firing as it should be as it might have been first thing in the morning. So in that respect, you're not rested, you're not rested, you're working. And I use the analogy of a muscle. You know, if we, if we're in the gym, you do a workout, you work that muscle to a certain point, then you rest it, you have a rest day or a couple of rest days. And then during that period, before you go and work that muscle again, it's had time to relax and regrow, and each time it grows back stronger. Well, we've got to think about it. Our heads, our brains are a muscle. If you were working your muscles from 7 a.m. till 9 p.m., you're physically gonna be exhausted, but that's what people are doing with their brains. So we need to rest our minds a lot more. It's not physical, it's the mental rest that's so important.

Sarah (05:08.29)

It is, isn't it? And it's so misunderstood. I think, you know, we sort of think, I'm going to go and lie down for a rest. I'm going to sit down for a rest. I'm going to just chill out in my chair for a rest. But actually, physically, we may be resting. But usually our minds are still going, have I done this? Do I need to do that? Or I just need to make a note of that and I'll just check my phone and I'll just see what's up. Our minds aren't given that stillness that the mind needs in order to, if you like, using the muscle analogy, repair and grow. We're just piling more and more on. And yeah, hands up, I'm guilty of that as well. I'll sit down and think, right, I'm going to switch off. And then it's like, oh, I'll just check that and I'll just see if that, oh, I better make a note of that. And oh, Alexa, remind me of this. I'm not actually switched off mentally, which means I'm probably not switching on physically either. Yeah, and that's the thing, isn't it?

Caroline Bramwell (05:42.878)

Absolutely, absolutely. And people go to bed and they get restless. You know that thing when you go to bed and you toss and turn, you can't sleep because there's too much going on in your head. It's because we've not rested and cleared stuff off our desk. And again, I suppose a lot of this also would be time management, you know, blocking time out for certain things so you can go, do you know what? I've done everything I said I was gonna do today. I can rest. And it's almost like saying my brain can rest because the rest of it won't come until tomorrow.

But I think we keep piling work onto ourselves, don't we?

Sarah (06:37.482)

Yeah, but it's also, you know, you finish work and I'm very good. I computer gets shut down, tidy my desk. I make my list for the next day. Things I've got to do. Closed the office door, walk away from it. But I'm still thinking, right, what am I cooking tonight? Where's my food? And it's my mind still going. And I'll be honest, I've got into the habit recently of reading I used to sort of, you know, towards bedtime, I switch off all my tech and everything and I'll read a book. And I was reading kind of self development, personal development, business development books and things. But I actually stopped doing that. And I started reading what I can only describe as, you know, really frosty, chick lit, because I don't have to think. And actually, I find that restful, even though I can see what the where it's going and what's going to happen.

Caroline Bramwell (07:19.061)

Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah (07:26.55)

But I find it, it rests me mentally much more than if I'm trying to read a book on how to do this and how to grow my business, because I'm still in that, that working mind mode instead of switching off. 

Caroline Bramwell (07:41.357)

Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Reading at night. I mean, yeah, I read at night. But like you, I always just read fiction. Because it is, it takes you away. And this is the whole point of rest. It's not just about switching your brain off and sitting in front of the telly. Your mind is not switched off by just watching telly because other things will creep in. You know, that's almost mindless stuff.

Proper rest is actually walking out of the door. It's physically moving. It's like taking yourself out of that space. So many people work from home these days that you spend so many hours in this box that we live in. And just moving from one little box to another little box in the same box isn't really stepping you away from it. So it's about going outside. So rest kicks in in two different ways I've found. You go out for a walk and you're just absorbing it, you're just letting your head float, which is nice because that's where creativity can come from. If you're walking outside, I've got a dog, I'll take her down on the beach, I'll take her up in the woods, and that's where you can switch the phone off as well and literally just take the dog out for a walk. Yeah, I do some of my lives from my walks.

I've been doing more of those recently, but it's all talking about the getting outside. So that's one level of rest, just physically going out and, you know, looking around, you might get a bit of inspiration, little ideas pop in your head. It's always worth having a notebook on you to jot that down. So I'm a pen and paper girl. I love a pen and paper. And it means the phone doesn't have to be on. So again, it's just a little notepad. And that comes from being an author as well. You know, having a pen and paper in my pocket all the time as an author. That's where creative ideas come for writing books as well. But we should do that in our day-to-day lives. If you're working on a project and you're struggling to see how the hell am I gonna get through this? What do I need to do? The answer is go out, have a walk, just relax by being outside. Little ideas will pop, things will turn over and you can jot them down. But that's one level.

The other level of rest is actually more intense, which is where it is so absorbing, you don't even think about work. Ideas don't come to you at that point as you're drifting along, because your brain hasn't got the space. It's almost like going, I have the time now to, in my case, go for a long cycle ride. If I'm out on a bike, I'm focused on the road, the weather conditions, you know, potholes you know, where you get absorbed into something, and this is where sport comes into it. Can you imagine if you're a mountain climber, you don't want to get halfway up a mountain and go, oh, I just remembered that thing I didn't do at the office. It's a bit like the, oh, I forgot to turn the gas off. You don't have the capacity to even let those ideas in. If you're mountain climbing, you're hanging on a rock. That's not even going to pop in your head.

So actually having a sport or an activity that is so absorbing actually switches you off from work. And actually, when you then come back into your workspace, that's when the ideas come. It's almost like you've put your floodgates up and said, don't think about it now. And when you get back, you go, oh, now I've had that time. And new ideas come. So there's two different levels of rest.

Sarah (11:25.834)

Yeah, and we tend to work with our conscious mind, mostly, most of us, but we've got this really powerful subconscious mind. And when you do switch off like that, when you do become absorbed in something that's not work, that's nature or whatever, or you're focusing on where you're running or walking or anything, it means that subconscious mind has got time to actually do what it does, which is solve problems, come up with solutions. And I find, and people have said this, and I know just before Christmas, I was talking to somebody about the power of walking and then writing and I find I when I go for a hike I'll sit down afterwards and I'll just have a cup of tea, a cup of coffee and just look at the environment I'm in, it's out in nature, it's beautiful and then I'm like, oh, there's the thought, that's why, oh, and all these ideas will pop into my head because I've switched off, not because I've been focused on trying to find an answer, it's because I've switched off and I think this is so important, isn't it? I know so many people say, oh well I listen to podcasts, I listen to audiobooks when I'm out running or walking and actually sometimes you need to not even do that.

Caroline Bramwell (12:16.813)

Absolutely.

Sarah (12:35.158)

because your mind is still going. And there's the late one things I've heard about recently. I'm sure it's probably not a naked, recent trend, but naked running as they call it, which is not going out there in all your glory, all your naked glory and running, but it's actually running with no technology whatsoever. No phone, no tracker, no Garmin, no sport watch, nothing. You literally run for the joy of running and you run until you feel, I've run long enough now, I'm gonna stop. So there's no, I've gotta run faster, I've gotta do 5K, I've gotta do it in under half an hour, it's just you run for the pleasure of running and when you hit the point where you think, yeah, that's enough, there's no pressure. And I think again, to me, see, I like to walk with no tracking on it, I take the dog or if I haven't got the dog, and I just love walking and I can stop and look at the view or notice something or, you know, getting close to a flower or, you know, and I think you just, there are times where I go on what I call a notice walk where I'm noticing, I make it a priority to notice things in nature. And it's amazing what you see that you haven't noticed before and you think, but I've done this walk 20 times in the last month and I've only just noticed that or that.

Do you think that's, you know, sometimes we need to leave everything behind and just be.

Caroline Bramwell (14:01.373)

Absolutely and that's where that subconscious kicks in because you've switched off from the conscious thinking and looking and things pop up that you would never have seen before. It's like peripheral vision isn't it? It suddenly pops up and you go, oh I never really noticed that. I mean when I'm out the dog I don't track my dog orcs, I wear a garment obviously for my racing and my training. But if I'm out with the dog I'm not using that, you know, I'm literally, it's just a watch.

I use it just for clock watching, but even then when I'm walking, it doesn't really matter how long I'm out for. But I mean, we've gone out and we've had deer leap out in front of us, all sorts of things, and you think, I would have missed that if I was sat at my desk. But it's important to know when you're, when you need to rest. It's not like, get up early, work till five o'clock or seven o'clock and then rest. There's actually some credibility for this power napping idea. It's the actual break in the middle of the day. You know, if you work intensely for four hours in the morning, really focused, time blocked, focus on the work in the morning for four hours, then you get to your lunch break. Just stop, sit down, rest, go for a walk. You know, I'm not the first one to think about this.

Sarah (15:01.282)

Yeah.

Caroline Bramwell (15:27.029)

There are people, if you go back in history, who would do this or they have their country retreats. They would step away from the really intense stuff because they knew that they needed that decompression time. But as you were saying, our brains don't stop. The conscious brain might stop. It's like sleeping at night. The things that you've been churning over during the day can be ticking over in the background. The following morning, you get that moment when you wake up and go, I've got the answer. But that's because your brain has the subconscious brain, actually keeps chewing it over for you. It's a bit like if you see a face and go, who's that person? I don't know where I know them from. A day later, ping, it'll come instantly because your brain has subconsciously gone, I'm churning in the background here, I've found out who it is for you. But that's how it works with our creativity and ideas as well.

Sarah (15:59.245)

And if you think, go back, let's go back 30, 40 years when we used to go on holiday for two weeks and you'd hop on, you'd literally, you'd close your front door, you'd double check it was locked, you'd double check your switch of gas off and everything. But you'd get on that plane and that would be it contact wise for two weeks. If you got newspapers, they'd probably be three days old if you got them. The TVs were all in the national language so you wouldn't be able to understand it.

And you'd switch off completely for two weeks because you just and yeah if something urgent happened maybe people could get in touch with you but there were no phones no computers nothing you it was enforced rest wasn't it in a way you just completely switched off and I just think how many of us do that now how many of us actually go on holiday and don't even think about anything because there's nothing we can do we don't we're always in contact

Caroline Bramwell (17:09.234)

It was. Because the phone, I think having mobile phones now makes it so accessible and it's almost so expected of us to always be available. You know, the speed of things, people expect you to get back to them instantly on things. This expectation has been put on us now, so the world has sped up and that's where I think people aren't switching off or having that down time because there's an obligation that I should always be available. And I think people who run their own businesses particularly feel I can't step away from the client work but it's important that you do have a break.

Sarah (17:58.078)

And it's boundaries, isn't it? And it's, you know, whether you're in business or whether, you know, your personal life, it's having those boundaries, it's saying, no, business-wise, I am available between these hours. And then I have an out of office on when I go away. I put out of office on all my emails. Yeah, I'll be checking them because I work for myself. So I will, and I can, but I might go two days without checking work emails purely because I'm doing something else I'm busy and I can't be bothered or I'm abroad and I don't want to rack up the data charges that's always a good one. It's like yeah, I'm not going to do that.

Caroline Bramwell (18:23.524)

Even better, I've got people who take my calls. I just use a low cost telephone answering service. When I'm not around, they divert to them. They'll take my calls for me. They know I'm not around. They'll just let people know, sorry, she's not about. Or again, like you, out of office. I think as long as people know when you're back. Or little things like, little tricks and tips or things like calendly. You know, having a program. If somebody wants an appointment with you put it in a calendly and block out the time. So if they want to book with you, they can, they don't need to speak to you to do that. They can literally just go online, book an appointment and you come back and it's all organized.

Sarah (19:01.152)

And there are various appointment schedule is out there. And even if you know, there are free versions and it's quite useful because you can say, right, these are the only times that I'm available this week. And it saves the backwards and forwards about what about Tuesday? It's right now. I can't do that. What about foot? And it all gets confusing, whereas actually they can go on. See what's booked the slot. You get told you've kept it free because it's in your calendar as bookable time. But it's also, you know, for people with families, you know, again, it can be really hard to rest because you've got the school run, you've got meals, you've got shopping, you've probably got work as well, and you've got a partner, a relationship there, and again, it's kind of tempting to think, oh, I haven't got time to rest, I need to... But actually, it benefits everybody when we rest. It benefits us in so many ways doesn't it because you need to prioritize and I you know an episode a few weeks back looked at the importance of taking time for yourself because you actually when you are rested when you've prioritized yourself and your rest you actually have much more to give

Caroline Bramwell (20:32.105)

Yeah, absolutely. And you've got the energy for it, especially people with children. You know, the old adage really is you should rest when they rest. If you've got little ones, if they're asleep, you take a rest at that point, because then, you know, don't fill it up with other tasks, because then when they wake up, you've got to deal with that as well. You know, you need to prioritise rest into your day as well. It's just as important if you've got little ones, schedule it when they do it.

Sarah (20:43.467)

Yeah.

Caroline Bramwell (21:01.929)

It is about, I know it sounds terrible, time management of your life, but that's important because you have time for certain things and that includes yourself.

Sarah (21:14.686)

That's it, and somebody I've worked with in the past talks about what she calls gold time, which is your time to put something in. And it's, you know, again, we're so used to having every chunk of our day time blocked, if you like, rather than managed. I make, I always have, you know, blank space in my diary for things that might crock up. So I can move something in there, or I can just sort of say, oh, I've got nothing in between three and four this afternoon, I'm gonna have a rest. I'm gonna do nothing, I'm gonna go for a walk.

Caroline Bramwell (21:42.057)

Yeah, but don't you find that some people are so busy, you don't even put those slots in for the incidentals. And it is the incidentals that get in the way, let's be honest. It's the little urgent message that crops up and you think, oh, it'll only take me two minutes to answer this and then it becomes an email trail. And then you think, oh, where did that half an hour go? But actually, that's just the way work has got, hasn't it? It has got busier like that. 

Sarah (21:51.917)

I did this, there's this thing called zero time blocking. I think it is, which is where you literally account for every single minute of your day. And that is like between 10 o'clock at night and five in the morning sleep, you literally have everything in. So I thought, well, I'm gonna give this a go. I'm a great believer that, you know, I'll give it a go. Before I do anything, I'll try it. So I literally write work, emails, admin.

Caroline Bramwell (22:23.206)

Block out your sleep time.

Sarah (22:33.106)

And podcast recordings, delivering training, I literally did the whole lot. And I'd done everything, you know, meal planning, you name it, I'd literally count it for every single half hour of the day. So I'm sitting there thinking, right, okay, sorted. So time to cook. Oh, haven't shopped. Hadn't put any time in for shopping. I had not allowed myself to go shopping.

Caroline Bramwell (22:53.251)

The normals.

Sarah (23:00.254)

And it's, yeah, again, it's, you know, you can manage your day without being rigid. But it's like you say, there are times where you think, well, just had lunch. I'm actually, you know what? I'm a little bit I am tired. I'm feeling a bit dozy. I'm going to I'm going to have a little nap for 15 minutes, 20 minutes, or just lie down and just lie down and think beautiful thoughts for 20 minutes. And you know, it's giving yourself permission to rest because you're bringing it back to, like you were saying, going to the gym or running. You have rest days. You have days where you do less. You have days where you do more, but you always, you have those rest days because your body needs to repair and restore. And it's the same with our minds, isn't it?

Caroline Bramwell (23:22.347)

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that's where, as a tri-coach and as an athlete, that's where I've seen so much synergy. The stuff that we do with coaching and programming, you know, somebody wants to hit a goal. Let's say, for example, in a triathlon scenario, you've got a goal of doing Olympic triathlon. You know, we would plan a schedule for that. You would time block.

Again, you're time blocking, you build your rest periods into it, you come back to it with an increased intensity, then you time block again with a bit more rest, and you're growing as you go. And we should be thinking about that with our businesses and our lives in business, because we can start working on our business, then we have a rest, let that growth settle in, come back with a new idea of, oh, I could up-level that to X, Y, Z then you rest over a period, you know, you've implemented that, you've given yourself a break and then you come back again and go, now I could diversify this over to this audience. And suddenly you're growing from each rest period. You grow again.

Sarah (24:51.276)

And it's like, you know, when you do triathlons, you work with triathletes, you do Ironman, you work with people doing Ironman and things like that. And that's a very, very specific training program, isn't it? You don't just wake up one day and think, quite like a bit of swimming, a bit of running, and a bit of cycling, I'm gonna do a triathlon. You train for it.

Caroline Bramwell (25:15.497)

Yeah, absolutely.

Sarah (25:15.834)

And I imagine as a coach, rest is a fundamental part of training. It's not just about the running or the swimming or the cycling or the changeovers and things. Yeah, I can never remember. But rest is a fundamental part of the training program. It would be nice to rest on that day, but it's a fundamental part of it, isn't it? And I think this is something, you know, whether you work, whether you are at home, whether you are retired, but here at school, you know, we need to be considering rest, not as being lazy, but as being an important part of our mind and body growth.

Caroline Bramwell (25:27.669)

Yeah.

It is. If you imagine you are training, if somebody is training for an ironman or a triathlon, you know, anything, a 10k run, if they just ran every single day, their bodies are going to become less efficient towards the end of that. Whereas if they had done a break every so often, every fourth week, they take a break, you know, as in we talk about periodization when we do training because we train for, say, a four week block in a build program. And there are rest days in that. But then we get to a week where we actually take the pressure off. So it's actually, we come back down again to a lower level on the body. So this is just letting what you've just learned for four weeks on your body. You're teaching your muscles and then you bed it down and then you go again, but you increase the intensity or the endurance you know, if you just went flat out for, I don't know, 12, 18 weeks, you'd be exhausted by the end of it and you'd get your race absolutely exhausted because your body needs that recovery time and that's what we have to do in work. We have to do that with our business.

Sarah (27:12.346)

But it's something that we don't think, do we? We think of it in regards to physical training, but not business. And I just think it's something that, we need to put more emphasis on this as part of life, rather than just as, oh, I'll grab a few moments when I can. It needs to be part, an important part of our day or our week is that rest time.

Sarah (27:36.699)

What other ways are there of resting then? I mean we've talked about going for a walk, getting out to nature, which is my number one, or a little nap. What other things can people do?

Caroline Bramwell (27:42.794)

For me, it's this absorbing activities. It's the going out to something that will become so all consuming. It's a hobby really. Let's call it hobbies for once or a pastime. If you have a pastime, I know roller derby, we used to talk about mountain climbing, anything like that is gonna, you need to be 100% on it, that's gonna be a mental rest because you're not thinking about work. And that again is that switch off. Because you're doing something else. I joined the choir. I go to a local choir. Not like a modern choir. Just because I enjoy the pleasure of singing. And for me now, every week, I'm off singing. There is no way I'm thinking about work while I'm in there. I'm just thinking about the songs, the harmonies, and it's that kind of thing. It's actually treating yourself to the things you enjoy. Rest is actually enjoyment as well.

Sarah (28:46.642)

Yeah, so it's not just about being still and doing nothing. It could, like you say, it could be doing something that completely absorbs you and just allows, you know, your mind to switch off as much. You know, say we know all about physical rest, about sleep, about not moving much, you know, stillness, which is which is important. But actually for the mind, it's being able to absorb, isn't it? And it's switching off from maybe the bulk. What takes up the bulk of our day?

Caroline Bramwell (28:53.451)

Yeah.

Sarah (29:15.082)

It is being able to switch off from it and rest from that. Whatever that is, it could be any number of things. But I've just popped into my head about carers who are caring for somebody, particularly if it's a family member, it's all the time. And I would imagine that mental rest is gonna be just as important as physical rest, isn't it? Doing something absorbing.

Caroline Bramwell (29:15.242)

Yes definitely.

It really is. I think that's the bigger part actually, because we all know that our bodies tell us when we need to physically rest, but our brains don't tell us when we need to mentally rest. We have to think about that and we have to treat ourselves to that as well. And that's why that's so important, because you do come back re-energised. We all know if you take two days off, you go back, oh, I'm ready, I'm ready, oh, I feel refreshed.

it really is about that mental switch off.

Sarah (30:08.458)

What are some of the signs then that your mind, I mean, because I think there probably are signs we're just we're just not familiar with them. In our bodies we know because we ache, we're sore, we're tired but with our brains what would be some sort of things that we might notice or that we should be looking for that might say, you know what, I need I need to step away for a while and get give my mind a break.

Caroline Bramwell (30:30.337)

My view on that is that it's about our productivity. Because I know for me, if I work late without having a break in the middle of the day, by the evening, if I've got a project, I struggle to write, words come harder. It's when the tasks that you normally find easy, like in a fresh in the morning, you might be able to, for me, bash out a press release quite quick and easy. If I'm trying to do that late at night when I've not had a break, for example, it might be a struggle.

I think we have to recognise when we're struggling to do things that we would normally find quite easy and I think that's a sure sign that your brain is going, I've had enough today, thanks, I really can't be thinking about this. So it is about recognising when you're struggling with something, you know, things that you might normally have thought were simple or thought, oh, that's easy to knock that out, but it's taken you twice as long because that's an indicator that your mind is, it's like it's slowing down, it's like the battery is wearing down and it needs to be recharged.

Sarah (31:35.774)

Yeah, and I think we we're not very good are we at noticing those kind of mental signs of fatigue? Yeah

Caroline Bramwell (31:43.965)

No, we work through them. I think a lot of people just plough through it. And actually ploughing through it is just making us even less productive. You know, the longer, it's like trying to eke out that last few bits of juice on the battery before your phone dies, sort of thing.

Sarah (31:52.778)

And actually, actually when your battery is running low, it runs down quicker than when it's properly charged, doesn't it? Yeah. And I think. Yeah.

Caroline Bramwell (32:09.293)

Absolutely. So top it up halfway. Keep pumping it. I mean using a phone charged as an analogy is such a good way of doing it because it will just run out quicker when you get near the end. But you know.

Sarah (32:20.702)

Yeah. When you go from 30% down, it seems to go really quickly. And anything that you do, uses, drains your battery faster than when it's at 80, 90% or even at 50%.

Caroline Bramwell (32:32.364)

I think the other thing is also when things trigger you. Because I think, I mean, we all know, if we get tired, we get irritable, little things irritate us, trigger us a lot quicker. And that's a sure sign that you need to just take a break. Because I'm an easy going person, really easy going person. I get on with everybody. But if I'm tired and something sets me off, it's like, oh, or frustrates me, you know,  tech is not all, it's never my friend, tech is not necessarily my thing, but I can tackle it, I can get through it, if it's fresh in the morning I can work through my website, I can, you know, do tech stuff, but late at night it's like, oh, it can irritate, so I think things that might trigger you that you'd think, this shouldn't be this hard, you know, it's often, it's actually, you're a bit run down on it, so.

Sarah (33:23.446)

But it's actually, I think, taking the time to notice when something's taking you longer, when something's frustrating you more quickly, when you're a bit snappier than normal, when you're out driving and you're reacting to other drivers more than you would. It's probably a sign that actually my brain is now saying, I need to rest and do that.

Caroline Bramwell (33:51.017)

Yeah, but this is why I think if we recognise that, that's almost the first step for people who are looking to change their habits. That's probably the first thing to look for, because then if you start building in this rest into your day as a routine for yourself, hopefully those occasions won't happen because you've changed your lifestyle, your pattern of working and living and so it's important to bring that into your life so you don't actually get to that stressed and techie point.

Sarah (34:20.382)

Yeah, yeah, don't rest when you have to. Rest because it's important. And as I say, I think sometimes it's like people wait until the last possible minute. And then it's like, oh, God, I need to rest rather than, do you know what? Rest is actually an important part of my habits, my behavior during the day. I'm not going to wait until I need to rest. I'm going to do it because I choose to, because I know it'll benefit me, which I think is a really

Caroline Bramwell (34:28.725)

Yeah, just build it in. Yeah.

And also decisions. Decision making is a big part of it as well, because if you are not rested properly and you've got to make a decision, you could well make the wrong decision because it will be a snap decision. So again, you know, if you've got big decisions to make in your life about career, work, projects, don't do it when you're tired or stressed. You need a clear head to make good decisions.

Sarah (34:49.162)

Yeah, it's a really important message.

And that's again a really important place to finish, I think, is this approach, having the right amount of rest and the right type of rest for your brain really benefits every area of your life, doesn't it? So tell me about your latest project very briefly while we're on.

Caroline Bramwell (35:27.037)

Just recently I have been running my retreat, it's called Power Up and Wine Down, which is a two-day marketing master blast retreat. Now this is not your typical business two-day intense retreat, it's actually got lots of rest built into it. I tend to pick hotels which have got sea views, so we've got plenty of rest. We work in the same way. We still do some intense marketing work on businesses. We do some deep work into every delegates business, which is why I only take up to six people on this trip, because it is just so focused. Mentally for me, that's a lot, focusing on six people's businesses. But over two days, we build out their marketing strategies, their plans, their messaging, their ideas, and almost spring all these new ideas of creativity for them.

But it comes because we build into that rest time, you've got access to the pools, we've got the saunas, we've got all our massage facilities. And this is where we also learn this pattern of work hard for a bit, then rest and then we come back. And it's amazing the ideas that then spring after you've just had a chill out massage and nice dinner and the ideas start flowing again.

Sarah (37:00.766)

And that's really what we all want, isn't it? We want our minds to be in as good a shape as our bodies. So it sounds lovely. I'll make sure the details are on the links for the episode as well. But Caroline, thank you so much coming back last time and talking about all the all your journey sort of from being inactive to Ironman via stoma was really, really interesting. So do look at that up people. But also now just actually the importance of rest. We know the importance of rest physically, but our minds, our mental state, our brains need to get proper rest. So thank you so much for coming back and you've been listening to me Sarah Bolitho and my guest this week Caroline Branwell and we hope you've enjoyed it we will see you all very soon.

Caroline Bramwell (37:06.398)

Thank you.