Creating Active Lives

046 Prostate cancer - why activity matters with Kevin Kibble

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In this week's episode I speak with Kevin Kibble about his diagnosis of prostate cancer and why activity matters.

We discuss:

  • his diagnosis and treatment
  • why exercise is so important with a cancer diagnosis
  • advice for prostate health
  • encouraging conversations about prostate health

About Kevin:
Kevin Kibble is former Chief Executive at nurtureuk (formerly known as the Nurture Group Network) the international charity promoting nurture practice in education especially for children and young people affected by social, emotional and/or mental health issues.

Kevin was born in Suffolk and trained as an engineer before pursuing a successful career in publishing. Prior to joining Nurtureuk in October 2012, Kevin was Chief Executive at Caspari Foundation, a charity providing educational psychotherapy for children & young people who need help to overcome emotional barriers to learning & development, and prior to that Chief Executive at Transplant Sport UK a charity promoting organ donation and transplantation using the British Transplant Games to highlight the benefits.

Kevin has over 30 years’ experience in management, communications and marketing, 18 of which have been working in, or in support of, the voluntary sector. Kevin is passionate about In Memoriam fundraising and the author of Engaging Bereaved Donors. He is also a regular presenter at conferences where strategic management and individual giving are important elements. Kevin is a Fellow and founding trustee of The Chartered College of Teaching, an Honorary Fellow of the Chartered Institute of Fundraising (CIoF), and Fellow of the Association of Chief Executives in Voluntary Organisation (ACEVO). Additionally, he is an executive coach and mentor with team and individual performance his major interests. Kevin also has the misfortune of being a long-standing member of Saracens Rugby Football Club.

Kevin can be contacted by email at kibble_kevin@yahoo.co.uk 

Prostate Cancer UK  www.prostatecanceruk.org

Macmillan:  www.macmillan.org.uk

Canrehab:  www.canrehab.co.uk 

About Sarah:
Sarah Bolitho helps fitness and health professionals develop their careers and grow their businesses by providing specialist training in teaching, assessing, and internal quality assurance, together with qualifications in exercise referral and disability.   

With over 30 years in the health-related fitness and physical activity fields, Sarah has a wealth of experience and knowledge.  She has worked in most roles in the industry from group exercise to personal training but specialised in working with specialist populations.  For over 25 years Sarah has trained fitness and health professionals to work with clients with long-term conditions, mental health issues, disabilities, older adults and pre/post-natal women.  She has a post-graduate diploma in exercise and health behaviour and extensive training in supporting behaviour change.  She has worked with awarding organisations to develop qualifications and training and with accreditation bodies to endorse high-quality non-regulated training. 

In her spare time, you will usually find Sarah walking in the mountains, by the sea o

For more about the training and support Sarah offers, visit www.sarahbolitho.com or contact her at admin@sarahbolitho.com.

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Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahbolitho

Kevin Kibble

Sarah (00:01.346)

Hello and welcome to Creating Active Lives. And my guest this week is Kevin Kibble, who is going to talk to us about his experience, I suppose is a good word, with prostate cancer and how important activity has been in that. Kevin is a former chief executive at Nurture UK, which promotes nurture practice in education, especially for children and young people with social, emotional or mental health issue which sounds like a really important charity and maybe that's another podcast with that one. But what we're really here to talk about and I will get you to introduce yourself in a moment is kind of your experience with prostate cancer and particularly the sort of physical activity side of it. So Kevin tell us a little bit about yourself.

Kevin (00:49.707)

Well, I am now finally retired after a portfolio career, going from engineering through publishing into the voluntary sector, where I was chief executive of a few charities, ending up doing eight years at Nurture UK, which was a fabulous job. And yeah, during that time I have seen so many different aspects of life that I've really enjoyed working with. But one of the things that I think has been helpful on my journey with cancer is that I got involved for quite some time with the whole aspect of around what were cancer outcomes like. So a lot of people in the voluntary sector know me because of my work within memoriam, for example, and the like. So yeah, I've had quite a wide experience and I'm now in my 70th year and still pretty active. So I think that's probably me.

Sarah (01:57.214)

I just want to add actually that you were chief executive at Transplant Sport UK, which a lot of people may not be aware but there is a dedicated kind of, if you like, Olympics-type thing called the Transplant Games, which is for anybody who's gone through any kind of transplant. So activities obviously been a big part of your career as well as your personal life as well, hasn't it?

Kevin (02:20.291)

Yeah, I mean, and that was inspirational to see the benefits of post-transplant patients and how they were able to return to full competitive sports in a lot of cases. I'm damn good at it too. That was inspirational to me. And so, yeah, and you look at how people overcome quite adverse conditions to become pretty fit. I think it's wonderful to see, just actually wonderful. And I loved that job. I was only there for nine months, maternity cover type thing, but yeah, very, very inspirational.

Sarah (03:00.302)

So prostate cancer, when were you diagnosed and how did the diagnosis come about? So kind of two questions there.

Kevin (03:03.803)

Right. I was actually given my final diagnosis in January 2023. I had no symptoms of prostate problems that I was aware of, that I should have been looking out for. I knew about the classic ones, which was, you know, when you're having a pee, can you maintain the flow and all those kinds of things that chaps should know about. And I was aware of that and I had none of those.

It all came about when I had a chest infection back in November 2022. And it was a real nasty one. I had massively high temperatures and was drinking a huge amount. And of course you couldn't never get to see the doctor. So most of this thing was done. Most of the initial consultations were done by phone. And the GP, she was lovely. And I said, look, you know, I can't get over this chest infection. We're going to give you antibiotics and put, well, can you get into the surgery for a blood test? I said, yeah, I can manage that. I said, but, you know, other things I like, I'm drinking so much, I'm not getting any sleep because I'm getting up to the Louvre sort of three or four times a night. And it was at that point, she said, well, I think we'll add a PSA test as well because you haven't had one for a while. And I didn't really think any more of it. Went to get my antibiotics and I got a text from the GP surgery saying about three or four days later saying, your PSA is a little bit raised. We're not over concerned about it, but we'd like you to come back and do another follow-up blood test 10 days after you finish taking the antibiotics. So we can see it's not that in your system. So we went through that and then I had another text from the GP saying, your PSA hasn't gone down, it's gone up a little bit more. And it's still only at this stage, it was raised to that 6.8, which from my own and my age, yeah, it's a little bit high, but not alarmingly so. And the GP said, you know, we can perhaps have a telephone call about this. So we talked it through and I had three options. It could be going to what they call active surveillance. So I'd go in every three months to have it checked. I could go into the surgery to have a physical examination, or I could be referred to the urology department at the local hospital which is in my case the Homerton in Hackney and because my wife and I were planning on moving to Cornwall and we were about two weeks away from exchanging contracts so I said look can I just have referral to urology I'd rather know there's nothing sinister going on is that okay and he said yeah fine I'll refer you should here within the two week period of cancer specification. So that was fine. I got a call from the urologist maybe a week later and we had a long conversation about what was happening to me and the PSA levels and everything. And he said, yeah, perhaps we'll get you in for an MRI scan sometime in the new year. I'm not over concerned with those levels. They're not particularly high, anything else we should know about you, any cancer in your family. And I said, yes, my mother and my sister both died from breast cancer. And then the conversation changed in a second. And he said, right, and this was a week before Christmas. He said, right, we'll get you in a day after Boxing Day. It's the first day we're back for your MRI scan.

And that was, you know, alarm bells started ringing at that stage. So we put on hold the sale of the house and everything. And I went in and had my MRI scan. We're going to a hospital the day after Box Day is empty. Just wandering and, you know, in and out of the scanner. And I'm not very good on scanners, so I've taken a couple of diazepam. So I actually fell asleep in the scanner and that he called me the next day. The urologist called me the next day.

I said, not quite sure what we can see going on there. I said, we're booking for some biopsies. And if we don't need it, if I get clearer pictures and we don't need them, I'll cancel it. I said, okay, fine. So we booked it for the 12th of January. The hospital called me a couple of days later, said, look, we've had a cancellation. Can you come in on the 5th of January for your biopsies? And I thought, this is not right. People don't cancel these kinds of things. This isn't right.

Kevin (07:47.555)

I went in on the fifth to have my biopsies done. Sat with the guy who was going to do it, and he started talking through what the process was going to be. And it sure sounded pretty unpleasant, and it is. And he said, and I can see where the cancer is. And that's how I was told that I had it. So that was a hell of a shock. Came out there to the waiting room, waiting to go down to the mini theatre to have these biopsies done.

I couldn't get a signal from my wife to tell her, you know, this is what it is. So I set up a text, I thought it will go, you know, when I get a bit of signal. Anyway, we were walking, I had to walk from one side of the hospital to the other. Not very nice when you're in one of those gowns and slippers. But, you know, we did get some signal. I said, yeah, this is, I've definitely got cancer, but I don't know what level or anything it is yet, I had the biopsies done and just as they were finishing, they said, right, we're going to send you for a bone scan because just to check, it happens all the time, you know, this kind of thing. Oh, God, right, this doesn't sound good at all. And I think it was a week later, I was in in the late afternoon, I was the last one to go through and as I came out of the scanner and I'm walking back to the waiting room and my wife was waiting, I looked through to where the lady was operating machinery and I said, oh is that me up on that screen? A little bone skeleton out, spine on this. She's, yeah and I need you to go back into the scanner because there's a couple of areas I want to look at in a bit more detail. I thought, oh this isn't very good either.

And so we did that. And then I got a call from urology saying, right, we'll bring all the findings together. We'll have a meeting with a multidisciplinary team and I'll call you on the 31st of January and we'll have a final diagnosis of what we're going to do about it. You said you've always been told there is cancer there. And so I got, yeah, on the 31st of January, they called me. All this was done over the phone. I'd not met the urology team or anything at this stage. They said, right, you've got advanced prostate cancer. It's spread outside your prostate. It has metastasized into your pelvis, lower spine and rib cage. And there's nothing we can do. You know, it's inoperable. So we're gonna start you on hormone treatment, that's what we're testing is. And then once we've started that, we're gonna hand you over to oncology. And that was devastating. That was really, really devastating for Penny and I. Yeah, absolutely devastating. So that afternoon I was down at the Homerton collecting my first set of drugs. A week later I was in the hospital getting my first prostate injection which is a solution that's mixed up in the hypodermic and then injected into your arm. And it's quite a long way. It's called a depo injection, so it acts over a 12-week period. And the neurologist actually took some time off to come in and talk to me, but that's the first time I've met him. And he said, oh, we're really sorry, nothing more that we can do, et cetera.

So in the meantime, Penny and I have been reading up everything we could find on it. What does this mean? What does advanced prostate cancer mean? And what's the outcome? Because no one's at this stage, no one's talking to you about what outcomes and things are. And we were looking at everything that we could find. And one of the things that was in the Prostate Cancer UK information, which is really good, by the way, loads of pamphlets on there, and it's a brilliant system. If you're ever worried about prostate cancer, that's the place to go, first of all. There's a risk assessment on there. Takes you 30 seconds to do it, all those kind of things. There was some brilliant stuff out there. But one of the things on there was, this is not the end of the world, don't just sit back and take it, get out there and get fit. And that was the least that I could do because I was fit before the diagnosis. And before I got the original chest infection, I was working out two or three times a week.

I had a personal trainer. My body measurements were really good. My BMI was in pretty good shape, down to 81 kilos. I was really probably as fit as I could be. And so I thought, well, at least I can do something like that. I started going back to the gym again. But the effect of the hormone drugs that they put me on have some really weird side effects, and the injection is for a couple of weeks after that I'm probably at my lowest. I have mood swings, tiredness, all those kinds of things. That's very low motivation.

Sarah (13:13.406)

Yeah, I mean, the thing I think a lot of people who might be listening, when we talk about hormone treatments, they basically remove the hormones that the cancer feeds on. So in your case, it would be androgen deprivation therapy. So your testosterone levels would really, really drop. And they can have devastating side effects for people, particularly as I think some of them are very emotional, very cognitive, which you don't expect.

Kevin (13:41.431)

Yeah, I mean it comes out of left field a lot of the time. You do have to prepare yourself for a complete change of life. I mean, it is life changing. And it's difficult for a guy to imagine having no testosterone in his system. You know, is it because we've lived with it all our lives and all of a sudden it's just not there. And all your expectations about your life have completely changed.

And, but what I would say is it is something you can come to terms with. It's not the end of the world. Because when I had my first meeting with my oncologist, having, you know, we've gone through meetings after meeting on the phone and goodness knows what else and the news seemed to have got worse and worse and worse. And in this case, better get my affairs in order, you know, and all that kind of thing. To the first meeting with the oncologist, they said, right, this is what we're going to do. You're on the Prostap injections. Now we're going to put you on daily doses of Venzolutamide. And I said, okay, I've read about that. That's another hormone treatment. She said, yes, they work in tandem. They don't do exactly the same thing. They work in tandem, but you will be catapulted into the menopause almost overnight basically. Excuse me. And I said okay, right. And my wife turned to me and I said now you'll know what it was like for me. But they said you know, this will keep, we think will suppress the cancer and stop it feeding on anything else. So hopefully we can, you've got quite low burden of cancer.

They're more like lesions and tumours at the moment. So we want to keep it that way. So we'll give you these drugs and we'll monitor you every eight weeks. And you'll come back and you have a full set of blood tests. And then we'll see you every eight weeks and see how that goes. But there are side effects. And one of the big side effects of enzalutamide is bone density, you lose bone density, weakening of the bones. So I said, so being fit, I said that I've read that that's a big helpful thing for that, I said absolutely. All the muscles that support your bones, the more strength you can put into your muscles, the better it is for you. The longer you'll be able to stay fit and healthy, in healthy and inverted commas, but you know, it's the longer you'll be able to stay leading a pretty much a normal life. And these drugs, when they stop working, we've got others that we can give you. So the whole conversation turned into a much more positive outlook. And that was kind of a kick up the backside to say, right, you know, things aren't quite as bad, perhaps, as we thought they were going to be. It's not ideal, but there are options. It's nice to know that there are options and that the oncologists are more positive than the urologists. So...

Sarah (16:45.002)

And I'll be honest as well, most people know this is a field I teach in. Treatments are new treatments, new clinical trials, all sorts of things are coming through all the time. So it's not like it was say 40, 50 years ago. Now there are so many more treatment options that if one isn't right for you or stops working, as you say, there's something else that they can put in place. But for me, and a lot of the people listening will know that activity is one of these things. Being active beforehand is obviously great. But even if you're not, activity starts to become really, really important, doesn't it? As both as a sort of a management of side effects, but also in maintaining quality of life.

Kevin (17:28.518)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think if I hadn't been as fit as I was before I started, I might have struggled a little bit more. But, you know, the proposal was that the Homerton was that they had this pre-hab program. And that's a program for people before their treatment, particularly before surgery. I can't have the surgery. But that doesn't mean to say that I'm still not having treatment. So I qualify for this. And it basically is three one hour sessions a week at a mini gym in Hackney. And it's free, paid for by the NHS. And it's part of a program that they're rolling out to try and get more cancer patients to get fitter before they get their treatment. So it's a small gym, basic exercise equipment in it which was actually you know no disrespect to that I'm used to doing a lot more but all of a sudden I found perhaps I couldn't do quite as much as I expected because of the side effects of the drugs but I'm now you know almost I think I started that program around April May time so here I am sort of six or seven months in and we're now talking about me moving and taking a specialist trainer into the gym with me to produce a program that fits my particular cancer diagnosis. So one of this pre-hab program in the gym with you, there's a pre-hab technician, there's a specialist trainer who has training in working with cancer patients, there's a dietician, physio, all those are there to support people going through this journey.

Sarah (19:37.258)

Yeah. Do you know what? I may well have trained the fitness specialist because I've trained so many of them over the last 10 years that you never know. They make me want to mine. It should be quite fun.

Kevin (19:38.675)

That's really brilliant. You never know, maybe that's the case, but it is utterly brilliant. Because there's people going into that gym. At first, when I first went there, there was hardly any females, almost all males going in. And slowly but surely, and I think a lot of this is the work that Macmillan is doing, encouraging people to come to it. We've had more, particularly women who are a bit older, have never dreamt of coming into a gym, would not in a million years have dreamt of coming in. It's such a supportive environment because we're all in the same boat one way or another. And are now working out in the gym, going through their exercise program, building up their strength and resilience and feeling better when they come out. Oh, that was okay. You know, that was good. And it's such a positive thing that you see, I've seen the change in these people over six months. Remarkable, the gym's now full, those sessions are now full and they're trying to get funding to extend it. And I've said I'll help out with anything I can on the fundraising side of that. But yeah, but also my wife could go with me as well. So. in the early days, that was very helpful. That kind of support. Now she doesn't need to come with me. I go on my own and I now have to go and get bigger weights out of the main gym because the weights in the little gym aren't enough anymore. And whereas I could mid row 22 kilos when I was at my fittest, I'm now back up to 16 kilos. That's really way above what's in that gym, which is normally up to four. So, my fitness is coming back in terms of my strength. I can't run anymore. I can walk. And I've set myself a challenge to walk a thousand miles this year. And so having a dog of course helps because it needs walking every day. But the strength side of my fitness is really beginning to come back. I've got a lot of issues around being careful with bones and stuff. So how, particularly I've had a lot of injuries during my lifetime of sport. People tell you to play sport all the time when you're young, because it's good for you. It damn well isn't later in life. All my knees shot, shoulders shot, elbow shot, operations on all of them. But, you know, it's staying active  is absolutely key to it. There are times in the morning when I don't really want to get out of bed but the dog's got to be walked and it's cold and it's wet and all that's it. By the time I'm out and really the dog's running off doing her own thing and I've got my I'm alone with my mind and I'm walking along the riverside uh to Walthamstow marshes or Leyton marshes and all of a sudden I'm back into the zone you know um I'm back being me again and I'm  thinking ahead, I'm not thinking backwards, I'm thinking ahead. Really, really important. What am I going to be doing next week? What are the kind of things that you lose if you just sit thinking, oh God, why is this happening to me?

Sarah (23:13.506)

I know Walthamstow marshes, in fact my son walks his dog there most mornings, so he's probably crossed paths at some point. And actually it's a beautiful environment to be able to access for walking and I think that does help doesn't it, when you're not in the mood, when you're just feeling you think no, because I can go out there and I can just be by the canal or I can be by the reservoirs and just be out in nature, even though I'm in the middle of London, I'm in just enjoy the moment and I think that's a real benefit isn't it, being able to just walk somewhere like that.

Kevin (23:58.6)

Oh, absolutely. And the thing with a dog is people will talk to you. And if you don't want to talk to them and just say, you just say, sorry, keep an eye on the dog sort of thing. But otherwise, people, other people with dogs will sit and chat to you for ages. Especially if the dogs are playing together. That's and so you're meeting different people. And it's it really is a very, very positive thing and that's all and it's all linked together with not sitting on your ass and worrying about it because what it what will be will be hard to get your head around that and I understand that and I've had some really great psychological support from the Homerton hospital as well that's all included in the cancer support that I've had there which has been brilliant I  lose my track sometimes with these hormone drugs, but staying in the zone when you're out allows you to breathe just differently.

I like to walk at a fair pace. If I'm walking with my wife we tend to dawdle around and look at things and stuff and she's a bit shorter than me so her little legs don't walk quite as quickly as mine do. And so you know I tend to walk that pace and the dog loves it. The faster I walk the more the dog likes it. So that's the way I get most of my exercise now through walking. I've got sets of weights here at home and set up a bench in the spare bedroom upstairs so I can do a little bit more. I don't always have the motivation to do it and nor do I want to turn into someone who's so fixated about my fitness that I forget everything else that's enjoyable in life.

Sarah (25:54.05)

It’s finding the balance isn't it? You've obviously been given so much support and advice and opportunity around exercise and activity and I know that's not always the case in a lot of places, people aren't always advised about it. I mean it's something I know Macmillan are working on very proactively is getting advice around being more active as early as possible, as close to diagnosis as possible and hopefully starting to provide opportunities for activity the hospital setting, the clinical settings because it just makes it so much easier. But you're actually actively promoting this now, aren't you? You've taken a much more proactive role, not just exercising yourself, but helping other people.

Kevin (26:40.119)

Yeah, absolutely. What we've done is when I was diagnosed, there wasn't a drop-in centre for men with cancer in our area. So with the help of the Men and Link person, we got that organised and it's taking its time slowly stepping up. But actually we've invited women in as well and it's a new drop-in group. And this is good because we talk amongst ourselves.

 

and we had different people coming to talk to us. The chief executive of the Orchid Cancer Charity came in and talked to just a group of guys on Tuesday. And that's really interesting because we're talking about stuff guys would never talk about. You would never discuss this in the pub with your mates. And looking back, you think, oh God, I wish I had done.And I wish I had a chance to do that. So now, every time I meet someone, when was your last PSA test? It's not the be all and end all, but for God's sake, it's an eight-quid test. If your GP really won't give it to you, buy it. Once a year, eight quid, you can't afford that? Come on, your life is worth more than that. But your GP has an obligation to provide you with a PSA test once a year if you request it. They are obliged to do that. Don't let them fob you off. It's absolutely important to do that. That's one part of prostate health. Staying fit is a real, real bonus, but it's being fit in the right way, pounding the roads running is not necessarily the best way of staying fit. Muscle strength. Building those muscles. You don't have to be Charles Atlas. Most people won't remember Charles Atlas, but you don't have to be built like some kind of man machine to Schwarzenegger's like to be that. You just have to have a much more support of your joints and bones in your muscles. So legs, arms, shoulders, that's where it's really important to build those muscles. Never mind about your six packs and all the rest of it, because if you go on hormone treatment, that's gone. I've put on four, yeah.

Sarah (28:46.59)

And... Yeah, it's a quality of life, isn't it? It's functional ability as well, being able to carry on doing things. And in actual fact, the NICE guidelines, National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, the government body that puts out guidelines, the NICE guidelines for prostate cancer do include recommendations for muscular strength and endurance activity. Really important. But as I say, I think the important thing is there is support out there. Macmillan usually are in most hospitals with their advice. And even if they've got leaflets, they might not have a specialist there but certainly there are specialists out there. I know there are a lot of cancer rehabilitation trainers out there trying to get more and more into hospitals but what would your advice be to somebody who is newly diagnosed and isn't being given advice around activity?

Kevin (29:40.851)

ask, make a menace of yourself, make amnesia, you know, because they often, often to be fair to clinicians, they're really under pressure and they don't have massive amounts of time. But you know, it doesn't matter, grab, you know, grab hold of them and just say, right, what happens next? What am I incited to? I haven't taken up my GP surgery of free gym membership yet because I've been using the pre-house session at the hospital, but I know my GP surgery through the Better Health program, I'm entitled to free six months gym membership. I will take that up, ask them when that comes, when I've moved off the prehab sessions, and ask for what you want. Can I get... McMillan's are great because they will tell you what you're entitled to. They are really, really well briefed, these people.

Sarah (30:16.598)

And they do, I mean, the Macmillan Move More pack, which they will send you free of charge, has a DVD of just simple exercises that you could do at home as well, just chair-based or standing. And I think, at the end of the day, clinicians, their role is very, very defined. They're not there to be physical activity advisors, but ideally, they'll be able to signpost you to somebody who is and can give you that specific advice and support. And it is out there. It's spreading more and more and more. And Macmillan is a really good place to start because they do have these Move More programs in a lot of places. And they do have access to information about qualified trainers. And I think one, you were saying they had a specialist in the gym with you who knows about cancer and its treatments and implications because it keeps you safe doesn't it?

Kevin (31:32.853)

Yeah, your average personal trainer won't have exactly what you're looking for in terms of this. They can get the information, they can download it from Prostate Cancer UK, or they can look it up online. They can get that information, but it's not part necessarily of being a trainer, becoming a personal trainer. What they're training you for is not necessarily what you need.

And you've got to be careful about not thinking, oh, I need to lose weight and I need to do... Basically, you need to be really focused on what's going to support you going forward. And that is primarily that is muscle strength, not cardio, because that is what it is. I've lost quite a bit of cardio capacity when I had COVID, but that's not really where I'm at. I do a little warm up, maybe walk a kilo or a kilometer or something on the treadmill to warm up when I'm in the gym, but that's all I do. And the rest of it is all weights and resistance.

Sarah (32:38.101)

And it is important because we know as well the side effects of the hormone treatments is a loss of muscle mass and impacts on your bones as well. So this is where that muscle strengthening, the resistance, the strength training is so important. But as I say, it's working with somebody who is properly qualified. Anybody who's out there and is interested in finding out more, I am a member of a lot of cancer and exercise networks. So just drop me an email or a message privately and I will find out what I can for you in there. But what advice then would you give to men regarding their prostate because you had no symptoms and you know within a few weeks we'll tell this is advanced and it's I mean it's treatable but it's not necessarily curable. But what would your advice be? You know, you hear of younger and younger men being diagnosed and there aren't always symptoms. So you said about the PSA test, so as well as getting a PSA test regularly, what other advice would you give to anybody who's thinking, I've got a prostate, what do I need to do?

Kevin (33:48.195)

Yeah, I mean, understanding the risks are really important. The risk assessment checker on the Prostate Cancer UK website takes 30 seconds. And any man over the age of 50 should be going through that and checking themselves against that. Because there is nothing physical you can do to check it. Okay, it's inside you and that's it. Any changes in your toiletry habits, get a check.

If you're a black male, you are twice as likely to get prostate cancer as a white male. If you had cancer in your immediate family, you are two and a half times more likely to get prostate cancer. So with my mother and my sister having had cancer, I was two and a half times more likely to get it. I didn't know this. If one of those is below 40 when they get it, you are two and a half times again more likely to get prostate cancer, which I didn't know. My sister died at 37. So the odds of me getting prostate cancer were way up, really high, and I had no idea. So know your medical history. Know the medical history of your family, because inside you, you don't know what's going on. You cannot see it. So being fit and healthy, you don't have to be a saint to look after your body. But don't smoke for a start. Keep as fit and mobile as you can. Keep your weight under control, particularly around your waist. And yeah, regular checks, regular checks. And if in doubt, ask. Never carry a worry with you. If something doesn't feel right, then it isn't right. Go and get it checked. 

Sarah (35:44.19)

I think as well I was going to say it's you know get to know your body, get to know what's normal for you because then I think we often we sort of swing through life just not really listening to our bodies. I think it's worth saying this is your normal, you know this is how you urinate normally, this is how often, how it feels, even down to how it sounds and the strength sort of thing because it's the changes that you want to be looking out for. Sorry?

Kevin (36:10.349)

Yeah, all those things. All those things, absolutely. Absolutely. And any change at all, however small. As you get older, yeah, your body changes and you do, and things do change. But that doesn't mean to say you shouldn't check and make sure that's normal. You know? And,

It's one of those things that I know since I've diagnosed. And when I came out about my diagnosis and put it on all my social media, I had loads of people saying, I've been for the test. I've been for the test. And I'm saying, well, that's great. That's what I want you to do. Spread the word yourselves as well, because it's not just, it's one in eight of us will get it. One in eight men will get prostate cancer. One in four, if you're a black man.

And for a lot of people as well, it sounds, you know, the word cancer can be very scary, but actually with prostate cancer, you know, most people will die with it rather than of it as well. But the earlier you can get diagnosed, the better the prognosis sort of thing. But even late, yeah, it doesn't mean there's no hope. It just means, you know, there are treatments, it's curable. It is curable if you get it early enough.

Sarah (37:26.302)

there are different things that need to be done, need to be tried and I think you know one of the things you've kind of said and you've mentioned it a couple of times is your men tend not to talk is men talk get talking you know ask, has anyone had a PSA exam? What does it mean? What does it involve? Ask the questions, because I think the more we normalise these sorts of conversations, and I think women are a bit more, oh I found a bit of a lump or whatever, I think we're a bit more used to discussing some of these things, but men, you know, it's, did you see the game last night? And we're both Saria supporters, so we might not necessarily talk about the game last night or whatever, but I think for men, you don't have to suddenly say, right, everybody, let's talk about our prostates, but just start to open up these conversations, particularly if you're worried, because you never know, standing over a pint or something, and someone's saying, oh, I've noticed, or noticing something when somebody pees and saying, oh, you're a bit hesitant there. Opening up the conversation however it comes naturally is so important in maybe encouraging somebody to go for a test that wouldn't have done.

Kevin (38:15.089)

Yeah, or if you're in the pub with your mate and you know he's going four or five times when you're only going once, just saying, you're going quite a lot if you've been checked. Don't worry about your GP. The GPs have seen it all before. You're not gonna go to them with anything that they haven't seen before. So that's not unique. It's only your insides that are unique. But what you go to them with, they would have seen it all before and they would have heard it all before and there's no need. It's difficult, I mean, and I understand that having been there myself, how emotionally challenging it is, anything around that kind of behavior, whether it's urinary problems or sexual problems or whatever, all these things, your doctor has seen it all before. So don't be afraid to say, I'm not sure about this, what can we do? Go to your GP and they'll check it for you. And if it's caught early, your prostate can be removed without, and it's done nowadays with robotic surgery and boom, finished. And for a lot of people who's caught really early, that's it, it's gone and done. If it's not too, if it's contained, but it's still a bit further forward, it's followed up with maybe with chemotherapy or radiotherapy., all these things, there are so many different variations of treatment now. I asked my oncologist about radiotherapy and to which she said, I don't think we want to go that far yet. We'll keep that back for later. So, you know, there's no rush to throw massive doses of radiation in your body just to keep you healthy. So, but stay as fit and healthy as you can. Eat lots of vegetables, do all that kind of stuff, all the kind of stuff you expect.

Sarah (40:23.382)

But as you say it's not necessarily giving up everything, is it? It's not, like you said, it's not being a saint, but it's kind of like, okay, 80% of what I do, if I focus on 80% being the good stuff, then that's okay. That's a good balance. But I mean, any particular advice then for people who are thinking about becoming more active and maybe haven't got support. I mean, we've talked about Macmillan and things like that, but there may well be people out there who don't have prostate cancer, but are just thinking, gosh, if being active helps to reduce my risk, what advice would you give to people who are thinking, what do I do, where do I start? Yeah.

Kevin (40:29.538)

But don't ruin your life over it. Walk more, get off the bus and stop early. And so add more steps into your day. You can download a free app on your phone to check in that number of steps you're making. And set yourself a little target. Don't go mad, just slowly build it. Things you can get at home if you don't want to go weight training, is you can get these exercise bands with varying strengths of resistance in them which you can use on your, I use mine on the stair post there to stretch all my shoulders and arm muscles and things. For legs, use the stairs, you know, do stretches, even if you're not building anything, keep them mobile, keep the muscles stretched and flexible, because that's what's supporting the knees and your leg bones. And there are all these things you can do quite simply. You know, get up and sit up without pushing yourself out of the chair, sit up using your legs. So you start pushing through your legs to keep strengthening your muscles. All this stuff is armchair fitness. You can find online really, really easily. And it's a good place to start. Because once it becomes easy, you think, oh, what next? And then you can worry about going, whether you wanna go to the gym or whatever. 

Sarah (42:12.823)

And that's it. I think a lot of people think I'm just not fit enough for the gym, I just can't go. But actually, for a lot of people, the gym is a progression, it's somewhere to move on to. If you're doing very, very little at the moment, then anything that you do is an improvement. So if you rarely walk or if you don't do much strength, do five press-ups against the wall, do three or four squats. If you're doing nothing, that's an improvement, that's a start. My big thing is always start where you are and if where you are are is doing nothing then a five-minute walk as I say four press-ups against the wall four squats that's a start have a look at some of the reputable stuff that's out there and look at okay what can I stretch what can I how can I improve just in everyday tasks and I think sometimes people think it's just it's going to be too hard too much too long too difficult whereas we can start simply and that's what it's about.

Kevin (43:23.863) 

Well, yeah, if it's too hard, you're doing too much, you know. You know, so to take it easy, you will. If you just gently let yourself into it, you'll find naturally it progresses because your muscles become used to it and they expect to be stretched a little bit more and it becomes just sort of self fulfilling. And I'm before you know where you are, you will be a little bit fitter and a little bit stronger.

Sarah (43:26.195)

And I will say my other big thing I always say is make it enjoyable. You know, if you hate walking but love swimming, then swim. If you hate swimming but love jogging, then jog. If you like cycling, cycle. Do something that you enjoy because, you know, the most effective exercise that you can do is the one that you do. And if you enjoy it, you're more likely to start really to look forward to it, particularly as, you know, coming into the spring, the summer, depending on the side of the world you're on. But you get lovely sunny days even if they're quite chilly but it's just so lovely to be out there and you know even if you walk quite slowly it's still activity it's still good for you so you know don't ever think that's not enough or I can't do enough whatever you can do is a good thing yeah and there's so much there are so many opportunities out there now different things that you can do that I think it's really important

Kevin (44:33.047)

Yeah, absolutely. And don't think it's not for me, because it absolutely is for you.

Sarah (44:50.818)

Kevin, thank you so much for joining me today because I think hearing about your journey, hearing about the treatments that you're having and the impact they have on you, but also the fact that you've kept active, you've kept active and that's an important part of your treatment if you like because it is part of treatment. We think of activity as something else but actually when it comes to cancer you know it's part of the treatment pathway now and the more that people know about it and kind of say right yep this is for me 

Kevin (45:22.787)

And it's not just snake oil salesman, you know, it's clinical evidence that the fitter you are going into treatment, the better your recovery rates. So all clinicians know this, but it's not part of the diagnosis to treatment pathway, you have to have a certain ownership of this yourselves. So getting a bit fit in the first place is a good place to start. But before you get ill, get fit sort of thing.

Sarah (45:53.19)

Yeah, so yeah, exactly. Build your fitness up beforehand, which reduces your risk as we know, and it can also help, you know, it can help improve how treatment affects you and also help you manage side effects and things. It is an important part of either recovery or maintaining the quality of life that you want to maintain. Yeah, so any last words of advice for everybody out there?

Kevin (46:14.767)

Um, yeah, actually stay as healthy as you can, you know, and even when there's bad news, sometimes there's always a better outcome around the corner. So the more you stay positive, you know, the better it is. I'm one year into my cancer journey now. And originally, when I looked at it, maybe four to five years was possibly what they were expected for a diagnosis like mine. I'm setting my targets further than that, you know, and whatever it throws at you and the hormone treatment throws some weird sort of side effects at you. You know it's better than being in a box mate. You know let's get real and get fit, keep moving forward and keep looking to the future because it's still out there.

Sarah (47:06.69)

Kevin, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been really, really interesting and I hope it helps people out there. But more importantly, I hope it inspires people out there to get tested on a regular basis because let's face it, prevention or early diagnosis is what we want more for everybody. Thank you so much. And I'll put links to Project Cancer UK and Macmillan within the podcast. But also if you do want to get in touch with Kevin, then just contact me and I can help make that happen. You've been listening to me, Sarah Bolitho, and my guest Kevin Kibble this week talking about prostate cancer. Thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe, give us a review and we will see you all again very soon.

Kevin (47:22.979)

Absolutely. It's been a pleasure.

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